May 2008 - Interview with Phil Mercy, following the release of 'The Water Road' - Arlequins (Jessica Attene & Alberto Nucci)

How can a British album sound Swedish? How can one change completely his music style, achieving an excellent outcome? Thieves' Kitchen completely amazed us with this new album, the outstanding "The Water Road", a superb symphonic Prog opus showing a very elegant British background, with a touch of Scandinavian feeling. Phil Mercy, guitarist of the band, in this nice interview tells us the secrets of success and how he got known Thomas Johnson, keyboardist of Änglagård...

Your music had an extraordinary metamorphosis: not only you changed your style but it seems that in this new shape you manage to express at your best: what do you think about it? What led you to try this new path?

PM: I think each of our four records have progressed on from each other, it's a continuing journey really. A number of changes have happened since we recorded "Shibboleth" in 2003 which have combined to give the impression of quite a leap. Key amongst these has been the contributions of Thomas, both compositionally, arrangement wise, and his exquisite playing. Another major component was a conscious band decision to devote unlimited time and resources to make the best album we possibly could, which culminated in recording at Rob Aubrey's studio in Southampton and Mattias Olsson's studio in Stockholm. We recorded the base tracks for the album as live band performances, something that wasn't technically possible for the band before. The performances are more impassioned. Amy's vocal performances, in particular, are really emotional. I've been using more amp tone and less effects, Andy's been using fretless, there's Thomas' use of mellotrons and other electro mechanical sound sources and, of course, Mark's been able to use his acoustic kit on album for the first time in TK. Composition wise, I think The Water Road shows a step towards the symphonic space. There was a definite desire for increased dynamics and texture in the music. We didn't want to lose that element of complexity, or Canterbury like quirkiness, but didn't want it to dominate at the expense of melody. Melody plays a key part in The Water Road.

Your sound seems to be more Swedish than English: is there anything of Scandinavian Prog which impressed you?

PM: Well, I've not really thought about this, but it's probably not that surprising. I guess Änglagård are a key part of what has defined a "Swedish" sound for most people and Thomas was a major part of their sound as he has been in the composition and arrangement of the music on "The Water Road". Having worked a great deal with Thomas, and to a lesser extent with Anna and Mattias, I've been greatly impressed and inspired by their approach to music making. They have a wonderful attention to detail. They have a great awareness of the texture of different instruments, and the emotion that a performance can bring to a piece of music.

As for the cooperation with some former members of Änglagård: what new elements have they brought in your music? How did you get in touch with them?

PM: I'd found myself in somewhat of a paradox at the end of 2004 with Wolfgang Kindl having left the band to return to Germany, as artistically I was really getting into classical stuff, Vaughan Williams and Walton in particular, whereas the band had been reduced to a 4 piece with a guitar dominated sound. I was really getting nowhere and becoming dispirited with the restricted sound palate and nothing good was being written. We were extremely lucky to discover Thomas living in the UK. His playing and approach to composition, dynamics and texture, was perfect for where we all wanted to go. It was Paul (Beecham, who plays oboe and sax on "The Water Road") who discovered using the internet that Thomas was living and working in the UK. Fully aware of his involvement with Änglagård in the 1990's, we were very keen to meet him and see if there was a possibility of working together. We finally managed to contact him and arrange a meeting one evening in a lovely pub in Oxford where it was clear from the start that he was a great guy and that we all had a lot in common. Obviously, Thomas is still in contact with both Mattias and Anna and we arranged to record both the vintage keyboards (Mellotron, Optigan etc) and Anna's Flute at Mattias' Roth Handle Studios in Stockholm.

We were very impressed by the song "Om Tare," especially for the particular choice to sing in Sanskrit. What does this track talk about? How did the idea originate?

PM: The music for "Om Tare" was the last to be composed for the album. Mark had commented that it would be nice to have something a bit up tempo to complement the other tracks and I thought "I'll teach him" and wrote the manic intro and the verse/bridge/chorus sections for the song, in some ludicrous time signature, very quickly. (I do like to have fun when I compose sometimes and the track is somewhat challenging from a percussion perspective) Amy found herself singing the main mantra to the chorus section as, odd time signature or not, it fitted perfectly.

You have enriched a lot your sound with a series of instruments such as flute, oboe and cello and you have placed a great deal of attention in the arrangements: How did you manage to build a sound as complex and delicate at the same time? How is the compositional process like?

PM: How did we manage it? Many, many, many hours of work in the writing and recording stages, going iteratively into greater and greater detail for each piece. Composition started in many different ways for the tracks on "The Water Road". A piece could start from some of Amy's lyrics, a piece of music from Thomas, or one from myself. Once one person has taken it as far as they wish to go, pieces get handed over from one person to another for them to add to it or change aspects of it. We did some writing sessions where we all wrote together but would also work individually. The end of the piece "When the Moon is in the River of Heaven", although provisionally sketched out by Thomas, was improvised live in the studio by the band and hence is a band composition.

In your previous albums we did perceive some good qualities but always it seemed that something was missing to reach perfection. Do you agree? Would you change anything now?

PM: Yes I agree. Perfection is the realm of the gods, and all we can do strive to continually do better each time. The majority of any criticism I would have, personally, would be in the area of production for some of the earlier albums, but it's not a regret as such. We produced what we could with the resources available and the albums are what they are. Often the best art is made when struggling against restrictions and limitations. Yes and King Crimson didn't start to use Mellotrons because they were the coolest instruments on earth, they used them because they didn't have continual access to an orchestra, and yet those limitations helped produced their signature sounds. I'm not sure I'd actually go back and change things. One must always look forward.

The United Kingdom has always been considered the birthplace of Prog and its rebirth thanks to the so called "New Prog", but now it seems to have lost its centrality. What kind of place has prog now in UK and consequently your band in the nowadays British music scene?

PM: Well, I think there are other countries that could argue that they are the birthplace of progressive music too, Italy notable amongst them. There's a huge amount of great music coming out now from all around the world, and I think that's really healthy. So many diverse influences. The next few years could be very exciting. The "Prog scene", if you can think of such a thing, is certainly different to what it was even five years ago. In one aspect, things have changed for the worse, that is the live scene. It is not easy to put on successful gigs in the UK, if people wish to see live music nowadays they are far more likely to go a see an old established band they know, a tribute act or a covers band. The scene for live original music is far less than it has been. In another aspect, I think things are definitely looking up as there's a lot of great music coming out of the UK in the last couple of years. Karda Estra and Big Big Train have produced wonderful stuff and both Magenta and The Tangent have released well received albums. There's also a lot of new stuff coming to light on MySpace from bands that have come to more eclectic music via the Radiohead route. I'm thinking of bands like Antique Seeking Nuns, really great stuff. I think that MySpace is helping to break down a lot of the genre and cultural boundaries we've become used to over the years and this bodes well for the future of interesting music.



December 2003 - Interview with Amy and Phil, following the release of 'Shibboleth' - DURP (Renald Mienert)

1. How does it came to the title of the record - Shibboleth sounds Jewish ?

Phil Mercy - 'Shibboleth' is indeed a Hebrew word meaning an ear of corn.
Amy Darby - Primarily, it's taken from a biblical story where the word was used as a password during a war between two tribes. The form of language differred slightly between the tribes so each pronounced the word differently, thereby a spy in the camp could be detected if asked to pronounce "Shibboleth". Now, 'Shibboleth' has come to mean a truth or concept held dear by a certain party or group that effectively sets them apart.

2. What are the reasons for your old lead singer to quit? Are you still in touch? Is he completely out of the business.

PM - Since the start of TK Simon had been stretched to dedicate as much time as he would wish to the project because of a demanding career and a young family. At the start of 2003, Simon and his partner Marianne were expecting their third child. Looking at the TK schedule for that year which included a short tour of the US it became clear to him that the demands on his time would be too great. With sadness he decided he had to leave TK. We are still in touch with Simon of course and he has been a great friend of mine for many years. Although leaving TK was hard for him, he has been able to dedicate more time to his family which is his primary source for joy in this world. He is still effectively 'out of the business' at this time but, as time progresses, fully expects to sing again in the future.

3. How Amy jumped into the band?

AD - I had known Andy Bonham (bassist) for years, having been in a band with him when we were both teenagers, and I was approached by Thieves' Kitchen after Simon had left and invited to audition for the role of lead singer for the gigs in the United States in the summer of 2002. As time went by, it became evident that I was to remain in Thieves' Kitchen for much longer than just this one tour!
PM - We didn't really want to advertise the post and were as eager to find somebody who would fit in personally with the band. It was clear from the outset that Amy had an incredible voice and so we stopped looking for other candidates pretty quickly.

4. Is she already involved in the songwriting?

PM - Most certainly yes. All the words on 'Shibboleth' are Amy's and most of the melodies were worked out with her contribution too.

5. Were you especially looking for an female singer or was it more chance? (I guess because woman are better kitchen workers than man, so why not in an thieves' kitchen?)

PM - When we started looking for a replacement for Simon we discussed the style of singer we would look for. Basically we decided that there were no limits and the idea of a female singer appealed to us all. It would mean immense challenge with respect to the material from 'Head' and 'Argot' as Simon's voice is so distinctly 'male rock', but the potential intrigued us.
AD - When learning the material for the America gigs (from 'Head' and 'Argot') I found that there certainly was an issue in that my voice is so tonally different from Simon's, even though my vocal range does not differ from his enormously, and would change the sound of the existing songs. The fact that I was a woman singing about lyrical themes originally written for a man to perform was not an issue at all. I don't think it was a strategic step for Thieves' Kitchen to take on a female singer, rather that they felt that my vocal style could enhance the material already written, and develop the style of the music that would be written in future.
PM - As regards the 'kitchen worker' hypothesis, it would have been more likely for us to hire a woman for her inherent multi-tasking capabilities that are proven to be far better than a man's, which is a skill so necessary for performing TK material!

6. Many Longtrax on the new album, but also much more shorter ones - pure chance?

PM - I strongly believe that a song should take as long as it needs to develop the themes contained within. Progressive rock is great in that there is no upper limit of three-and-a-half minutes for song length as there is for commercial radio-ready pop songs. This allows the progressive composer to develop songs of any length. However, this does not mean that you have to create 15+ minute long songs for every track or else you are not progressive - the trick is to get the length right for the material. On 'Shibboleth', although there are three long tracks, the themes on the other tracks naturally resolved in a shorter time-frame, so that is how they appear on the album.
AD - The music should do justice to the spirit contained within it. Too long, and you end up rambling and repeating. Too short, and you have cut it off before it has time to flower. I think the variation of the length of tracks on 'Shibboleth' pay tribute to the intuition of the composer in the understanding of all the threads involved, and the weaving of them into a harmonious whole.
PM - For the music on 'Shibboleth' we were exploring different ways of creating initial ideas rather than limiting ourselves to sequencer-based composition, as on 'Head' and 'Argot'. As a result, the palette expanded somewhat, and I believe that this has led to more variety.

7. "Spiral bound" is different from the other TK tracks. It is more like a 'normal' ballad, don't get me wrong, the song works out fine, but it is not what I know from TK so far ...
PM - 'Spiral Bound' is an example of the process mentioned above, and started life as a poem around which an acoustic guitar was woven. The words set the boundaries and the timing for the piece, and the emotion was the key element in the final result.

8. Can you give me some liner notes to the other songs of your record too?

PM + AD -'The Picture Slave': This track grew from the bottom up and was based around a rhythm track. A driving start to the album, lyrically touching on the dilemma of duality.
'De Profundis': An affirmation in the face of mortality. A more measured track with progressive structure and jazz voicings.
'Cardinal Red': An up-tempo and optimistic piece, lyrically pictorial and sonically complex.
'Spiral Bound': A song expressing "passion and outrage, the pulse of desire".
'Chovihani Rise': Impossible to sum this one up in a short sentence, 'Chovihani Rise' is the longest and most symphonic track on 'Shibboleth' with many themes explored.
'Surface Tension': A rockier finale, the need for privacy in a public arena.

9. You are still handling all the business things by yourself, no Inside Out deal at the horizon?

PM - I wouldn't rule anything out. So far, the business side has been run most effectively by Mark Robotham (drummer). For the level we are at in terms of CD sales, gigs and fan base, this is the most efficient way of doing things and we are supported by many friends in the Prog community including distributors, record stations, and such publications as yourself, in order to make this happen. At various times record companies do talk to us and we are flattered by their interest. At some point it may be beneficial to combine forces with a label so I wouldn't rule anything out. At the moment though, the artistic and financial autonomy offered by our current arrangement works just fine.

10. How would you describe the development between the new record and the records before?

PM - The key drivers for the development between the albums has been two fold. The progression in compositional techniques and the changes in the personnel involved.
'Head':- Included much material from a less Prog oriented project involving myself and Simon but also included some extended compositional stuff. Paul contributed to the compositional side and 'Return of the Ultragravy' was largely his composition. 'T.A.N.U.S' was half-written at the time I met Paul and 'Mute' was pretty much inspired musically by the possibility of gathering musicians capable of playing such complex arrangements.
'Argot':- By the time we started creating the music for 'Argot', we were fully into highly complex arrangements requiring us to play at the limits of our abilities. All four compositions were of a long format and this led to a very intense and dense album.
'Shibboleth':- With 'Shibboleth' I think we've expanded again, largely driven by Amy's lyrical imagery, in that emotion and mood play a large part in the compositions. Complexity in arrangement and the demands on the players continue from where 'Argot' left off but a lot of thought went into variations of intensity and dynamics throughout the album to move it onto another level.

11. Can you tell me something of the process of creating the new record? Were there any problems or went everything well?

AD - I think it's fair to say that there was a lot going on in the personal lives of the various TK members during the writing and recording of 'Shibboleth' and some of this comes through on the tracks. Although this may have made some aspects of the writing and recording more problematic, I think the result has been worth it and we are all very proud of the outcome.
PM - Technically, the studio equipment was expanded just before the sessions as some of the older gear had started to cause problems. Although it wasn't planned that way, much of the album ended up being recorded on Cubase, which allowed more flexibility when it came to mixing the album.

12. What happened in the time between this record and the record before beside working on the new album?

PM - Mostly we rehearsed and played live in both the UK and the US, culminating in an appearance at the US festival 'ProgDay'. After that we concentrated on writing and rehearsing material for the new album.

13. How much is your kind of writing songs influenced by what people expect?

PM - Zero. None. Not a note. The only people who influence the music we write are the 5 members of TK. However we want to express ourselves at any particular time is what we'll do. It's the only way it can work really. Many of the people who hear our work express opinions about it, and some wish we would be more aligned to their personal tastes. That's not how it works though. If we write and play the music we want to hear it stands a chance of being original and something that people will like on it's own merits. I'd rather people be asking other bands to sound more like Thieves' Kitchen.
AD - I can only speak for the creative process that was involved in the birth of 'Shibboleth', but I can say that at no time did we ever consider what people 'expect' to be a vital part of our writing. The whole process, from the generation of the first spark of an idea, to the final mastering of each track was driven by our passion to give life to the music, sound and ideologies that we felt inspired by. Creating music that fulfills a criteria of 'what people want to hear', regardless of how progressive it is in content, has little difference to the commercial mass-production of mediocre pop songs, and, in my opinion, can only jeopardise the development of a band both musically and philosophically.

14. Are the TK-members involved in other music projects?

PM - On occasion the various members get asked to guest on other projects and this is a healthy and enjoyable thing. As time progresses, I can see members kicking off side projects as and when the mood takes them.

15. Are you interested in the contemporary progressive rock scene?

PM - Interested ? well, yes, I guess. I'm certainly keen to support any musician who dares to take on music in this genre that's both as technically challenging as it's possible to get, whilst being so universally derided by the wider music press and industry. I see a lot of debate in the Prog community online, criticising this band or that band, this style over that style etc. From my perspective I have a lot of admiration for any musician playing this kind of music, whether it's to my personal taste or not. At the end of the day, because of the challenges involved, I know that they are making the music they want to make and that gets my vote every time.
AD - I'm fascinated that there are a quite significant number of musicians out there pushing the boundaries of what they have been told is acceptable or safe, and that there are those willing to take an extra step out into the creative void to share with others their vision of the world through their musical expression. My personal opinion is that this is what truly constitutes 'progressive' music, and I am excited by the evidence that there are others endeavouring to test those limits. I feel that our music does this at every step, and it is an honour to be in the company of others who will dare to make music their own and continue to drive it forward from the older forms of 'Prog' to a newer and more exploratory creative future.
PM - Thank you for a great set of questions. Best wishes for the future.

More interview transcripts to come!

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